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Podcast Transcript

00:00:01 - 00:01:10
Welcome to the Letter Stack podcast. The Letterstack podcast is the only podcast you need to listen to if you want to learn how to build, grow, and make money off a newsletter. We are going to talk to the top 1% of newsletter creators worldwide. So, regardless of what niche your newsletter is on, there's always going to be something new you'll learn on the latest podcast. So, stay tuned for more. Welcome to the Letter St podcast. Today's episode is about Nicholas Wzel and how he talks about building a case

00:00:37 - 00:01:40
for understanding your subscriber data. Now, as a newsletter creator, it's really, really crucial for you to understand who's subscribing to your newsletter because that leads to better sponsorships, better ad sales, and better clients. talk to Nicholas because he knows because he has helped others like CJ Gustavson build a new starter business and be able to monetize it really successfully. Stay tuned. Welcome back. This is episode 3 of the letter tag podcast. This is where we interview

00:01:09 - 00:02:11
the top 1% of newer creators and software founders in the news space. And in that note, we are going to actually invite Nicholas Wenzel, the founder of the Mega Hit app, where you actually get to understand who's behind your subscriber email data and be able to understand how you can monetize the data or understand it better to make your newsletter even more better. Right? So, we're going to talk to Nicholas. Nicholas has spent a lot of time helping others be able to grow and monetize that

00:01:40 - 00:02:39
newsletter business. These insights led him to start with the Megait app. And I want to make sure that we unravel how Nicholas came into newsletters and building the Megait app. And I wanted to understand that even though if you are a newsletter creator who's just starting out, who's early into the ecosystem, how would you be able to understand who is signing up for your newsletter and what can you do about it? So without much ado, welcome Nicholas to the podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate

00:02:10 - 00:03:10
Absolutely, absolutely, man. Thank you so much for taking up the invite and the time to be able to make it here. I want to make sure that before we start talking about newsletters and mega hit. If you wouldn't mind giving us a brief intro on what you were working on before and how did that lead into newsletters, Nicholas?  Sure. So, I'm I would describe myself as a tech guy. So, as when I was a little child, when I was about 10 years old, I started teaching myself software development. So I started

00:02:39 - 00:03:45
building small apps. I was really fascinated with video games. So that's what I wanted to do first. And then at some point I uh switched over to like software that would be useful in people's lives. And I kept building a couple of them um first just as a hobby then at some point tried to turn them into businesses. And the couple the first couple ones that I tried failed uh miserably. And that's uh totally cool. what I learned from it is like the skills that I need now and yeah how to

00:03:12 - 00:04:39
get into newsletters. At some point on an online forum I met CJ Gustiffson who writes mostly metrics. It's a great newsletter for CFOs.  Amazing newsletter. Yes.  Yeah. He has over 50,000 subscribers now. Um great people on his list and he's really successful with it. And so I saw him grow it basically from zero subscribers to where it is now.  Oh wow.  And at some point he we were talking and we realized he had no idea of who was on his subscriber list. And so I decided okay I want to help you figure that out. And then from

00:03:56 - 00:05:01
that um Megait emerged and became a product and now lots of newsletters are using it.  Awesome. But were you already familiar with newsletters at that point in time? How far back was this Nicholas? So I started Mega Hit like 2 years ago and I started learning more about newsletters when CJ started his. He posted on an online forum, hey can someone give me feedback on my writing on the newsletter and I just sent him feedback and he replied some. I sent some back at some point. We jumped on a call and we just kept in touch. That was

00:04:28 - 00:06:00
probably like four years ago now maybe maybe even longer  after co it was it depends on how you define when co ended but uh let me think it must have been end of 2020 I think.  Awesome.  Yeah. Um, and so I saw him grow it and like see him start from like not really knowing what what topics he should write about and who he was writing to to then at some point hitting gold and figuring out who his target audience was, what he wanted to write about, what his style was, and it was great to see. Very, very nice. And and at that point

00:05:15 - 00:06:15
in time, I'm guessing you realized that you're probably on to something or did you handle a few more newsletter uh scenarios like this before you decided, hey, maybe I could build something out of it. How did that happen?  To be honest, I was just talking to CJ all the time and it sounded really interesting to try to figure out who was subscribed to him and I just built it built the software for him. At first it was like a let's build this for one person. Yes. With the idea in the back

00:05:45 - 00:06:49
of my mind that others might want to use it too. But at first it was just like help CJ and then CJ had connections to other people and introduced me to them and then it grew into something bigger from there. But yeah, at the beginning I only know knew CJ who like really was doing a news article and had some success with it.  Awesome. So, this actually is a good segue into helping our listeners understand, you know, why is subscriber data or understanding who's behind your email list so important? So, would you mind talking

00:06:17 - 00:07:27
about a few use case on why that's so important, especially for early newsletter creators, Nicholas?  Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think your use cases are going to shift as you grow. I think the first thing you want to make sure when you write a newsletter is that you're writing about something that you care about and that some other people care very deeply about. And for that it's very important to know who are you writing for and are the people who are reading actually the people uh who you think they are uh and the

00:06:52 - 00:07:56
people who you want to target and what do these people care about and at that stage I think it's a lot about talking to them um and often just like hopping on calls talking to them oneon one understanding who they are what they want um and then from there like evolving your product, your newsletter, and then after a while, you want to start monetizing what you've built. And once you want to start monetizing, like data comes in and is really important. Most people monetize their newsletters

00:07:24 - 00:08:32
through advertising and sponsorships, which is an awesome way to do it. And then you need a couple of different things. You need to find advertisers, and you need to convince these advertisers that you're the right person to spend the advertising dollars on. Right.  So, for the latter, you'll want a media kit that shows this is who my subscribers are. Um, I'm mostly working with B2B newsletters. So, it's usually uh these are the job titles that read my content or our content. Um,

00:07:58 - 00:09:14
we have X amount of executives on our list versus just a bunch of entry- level people. Where do these people live? Which industries are they in? just so that the advertiser knows whether making an investment into your ads is a good one or and or something that they shouldn't do and you want successful advertisers. So you should go for the ones who like whose ICP matches who you have,  right? And and ICP for our listeners means ideal profile. Um and but I I believe that also makes a better case for being

00:08:36 - 00:09:44
able to improve or make a better sponsorship model available than you knew before because now you might probably have way more executives in a particular industry or a niche which you did not know about. that makes it even more attractive to advertisers. Is that one of the key reasons why people would want to enrich the newsletter data as well?  Yeah, I I think there's like a couple different things. One is to just go to the sponsor and tell them, hey, we have X% of CFOs on my list, for example,

00:09:10 - 00:10:12
for in CJ's case. Another one could be a sponsor comes in and says, I don't care about reaching all these entry- level people. I just want to reach the CFOs. And so you can go out and tell them, hey, I'll send an email for you just to the CFOs. Uh you use all the data that you have and you charge them a big premium for just contacting this list. And at the same time, you don't send irrelevant stuff to the other people because if you send too many ads, at some point you can also annoy

00:09:40 - 00:10:35
your subscribers.  Right. Right. So yeah, please go ahead. Sorry, I'll let you finish.  All right. And then there are a couple other ways like people or newsletters use their data. One is you can find advertisers who are already subscribed to your newsletter. In general, whenever you can get people interested in advertising who are subscribed, that's awesome because they know you, they know your content, they know why it's great, they know how to talk to the audience, they tend to be a

00:10:09 - 00:11:16
lot easier to sell to, and they tend to be a lot happier when they're actually from the ads. So that's also something if and that's something you can do pretty early. Just look at which domains do people subscribe from and if someone subscribes from like an company that you know, look them up on LinkedIn, see who that person is. Maybe reach out to them, maybe just build a relationship with them, maybe pitch them on advertising, but yeah, figure out who your subscribers are and use that data

00:10:42 - 00:11:51
in the best ways possible. Awesome. That actually brings us to a great point. What is the tipping point or maybe the starting point at which an early newsletter creator would want to make sense of that data? I'm guessing it's,000 2,000 subscribers or is it probably a little more before they decide, hey, it's better to make sense of that data or would it be to do it from day one so that they know who's signing into it and also make sure they tweak their content for subsequent issues to do that. But what's your take

00:11:16 - 00:12:27
on that, Nicholas?  Uh, I think you should start from day one, but like with how much effort you do, it will probably increase over time. So, I just started a small newsletter today as we're recording this. Congratulations.  And yeah, thank you. Thank you. And as part of it, I made sure that I would collect people's data. Like after you sign up, there's a form and I ask you to give me your name, your title, and the company you work at. And I think when you start a newsletter in B2B, you should start collecting that

00:11:52 - 00:12:56
data as early as you can because it's that's like the easiest time at which you can get it. And at a later point, it's it's harder,  right? So for that reason, start early. But also, the earlier you start looking at who's reading and the earlier you start talking to them and figuring out what they want to read, the faster your newsletter is going to grow. So I think that part is something you should start very early. And then when it comes to stuff like selling sponsorships or using data for monetization, that's

00:12:24 - 00:13:32
something that usually comes later because if you try to uh if you have, let's say, 500 subscribers and you want to sell an ad, you're not going to make a whole bunch of money from it. And I think your time is better invested in most cases in making more content, growing your list so that at a later point you can command higher prices for your ads. So that's something that makes sense later. But you should start very early with getting like the initial data and starting to use it.  Awesome. And you

00:12:58 - 00:13:57
touch upon a great point, Nicholas, and this is even before you start making sense of your data after it has been collected, but even before or rather during the process when you're actually collecting a subscribers's email to be able to take that advantage to get to know them a little bit better. Uh, of course there is a trade-off between asking them too much info that they decide not to subscribe in the first place, but the intent is to make sure that you get just enough information to

00:13:27 - 00:14:28
know, okay, what's their full name and you know where are they coming from, etc. Right? So, so that's a great way of collecting firstparty survey data. Um, and I guess that's the most frugal way of collecting information about your subscriber and understanding who they are. Right now, uh we talked about enriching the data, but most of our audience who are early news to the creators might not understand what that data looks like. So, if you wouldn't mind letting us know or showing us if if

00:13:58 - 00:14:58
that's a better proposition, if you can show us what that data will look like once you enrich the data. Um, of course, we want to make sure we don't talk about anybody's live newsletter data. Even if it showed with sample data, I think it will give the listeners a view of what the before and after looks like when you enrich your news subscriber data. Yeah. Would that be possible? Nicholas, can you take us around?  Yeah, let's do that. Um, I suggest let's take a little step back

00:14:28 - 00:15:26
and like explain what it's all about. Sure.  So, when someone signs up for your newsletter, most newsletters only ask for an email address. And that means you have very little data. And even if you put like a form after it, you might get a certain percentage of people who fill out their data, but you'll be left with a lot of people where you have only the email address and in many cases only like a personal email address, for example, their Gmail where you have no way of figuring out who that person is. And

00:14:57 - 00:16:00
having that data is very valuable for your sales efforts and your monetization efforts. So you want to get as much data as possible. And then there's something called data enrichment which um I've been spending a lot of time on over the last two years which can get you data based on people's email addresses. And I've I've built a software called Megahit that helps you obtain data through data enrichment. So from the email address you get their titles, you get their names, you get their

00:15:28 - 00:16:41
companies, their LinkedIn profiles and can look like at a lot of detail at who those people are.  That's amazing.  Yeah. And um then you can and then meit helps you use that for your monetization. Awesome.  And yeah, let me share my screen.  Yes, please.  And then I can show you what it looks like. For context, any data I'm going to share is dummy data. So, it's not real people. It's not real email addresses. I wouldn't share that uh live on a podcast like that. I wouldn't share it with anyone.  That's

00:16:05 - 00:17:20
good to know.  Yeah, that's very important. But yeah, that's what it looks like. Uh Mega Hit, as I said, gets you a lot of information about your subscribers and helps you use that for monetization. It plugs right into your ESP, your email platform, whether that's Beehive, Kit, Mailchimp, or any of the other ones. It pulls in any new subscribers that you get a couple times per day. And what's coming from the ESP is mostly the email address here. And then based on the email address, it finds their data. So,

00:16:43 - 00:17:39
their names, their LinkedIn profiles, their titles, the companies they work at, what these companies do, which is like really important if you either want to understand who's subscribed or if you want to do any kind of outreach. You get a sense of how large the company is, which is really really good if you want to do any kind of sales prospecting to go through your list to find good advertisers. And you get engagement information for the subscriber for like any platform. We can show how long the

00:17:11 - 00:18:19
person has been subscribed. And then some platforms like Beehive uh allow us to show a lot more information there such as how many emails of the person open, how often do they click, uh do they refer any other people, are they a paid subscriber, and that always depends a bit on the email platform.  Amazing. And then yeah, once all that data is in, you want to use it. And one of the most immediate ways you can use it is filter it down to marketers on your list or filter it down to founders and CEOs on

00:17:44 - 00:18:51
your list and scroll through them and find people who you think would be good advertisers and then mark them as this is someone I should reach out to and then a later point reach out to them. And on on the other side you get the statistics view which is what you can put into your media kit where for example you can see where your subscribers are from uh what genders they have, what job functions they have, are they founders, are they marketers, are they engineers, how senior they are, is it mostly entry-

00:18:18 - 00:19:20
level people or do you have a lot of executives on your list? Is it smaller companies? Is it larger companies? And all this data is very important because the advertiser has a certain target audience in mind that they want to reach. For example, they develop a software tool for large companies. Then you want to show that they have that you have a lot of subscribers from large companies or they might want to target small companies and then you would want to show that they that you have a lot of subscribers from small companies.  Great.

00:18:48 - 00:20:03
And yeah, industry is also a very important thing because a software tool might for example target tech companies or media companies and there's an AI feature where you can tell me I care I want to know how many of my subscribers work in a given industry and then it gives you the percentage of people who do.  Amazing. Amazing. So this actually is is great data enrichment on autopilot. I'm guessing that once you plug it into your email platform like beehive or kit.com, it does that and it continues enriching

00:19:26 - 00:20:25
as new subscribers come in. Is that how it works?  Yes. So uh it it plugs into the API of your email platform and then any new subscriber who signs up will be enriched uh automatically which is like really nice to have it done in autopilot. Absolutely. Yeah, I could imagine this probably a dream for every newsletter creator as they do it too. But having said that, I'm guessing this caters to a specific audience who have a certain subscriber list as well, Nicholas. And I don't think you're

00:19:55 - 00:21:01
probably catering to a very early newsletter creator starting from scratch today, I would say. uh if that's the case uh in the absence of not having access to tools like Mega Hit and since you've done this before before you actually founded Megait 2 um could you give any advice to early newsletter creators who are being scrappy and frugal and prudent about their choices to enrich data?  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think for a tool like Mega Hitu makes sense. Uh you need to have an income stream, a good income stream, uh where

00:20:28 - 00:21:40
then you're you want to spend more money on growth and on growing your revenue. Um before that, there are a lot of things you can do. You can put surveys in um you can put them after your sign up. You can even restrict your sign up only to people who want to give you information. Great. Especially in B2B that can be like really powerful. You can run surveys in your posts in your newsletter issues um also pretty spontaneously. So an advertiser comes in and asks you what percentage of your readers fit my

00:21:04 - 00:22:08
uh ICP, right?  You can run a survey in there and then the next week you can report back to them how many of those people you have. You can also when an email address comes in look at it, see if you recognize the domain or if there's a name in it. try to Google it. Um, you can put something into your that's like more like a one-on-one thing. You can put something into your emails. Hey, do you want to jump on a call? I would love to learn more about you and I love making connections. Like

00:21:36 - 00:22:41
lots of people are happy to do it. Or you could reach out oneonone to people and ask them if they would be willing to do that.  Yeah. And I think a lot of people discount the fact that oh in in spite of this being an email newsletter which is probably going out to hundreds and thousands of people. It's totally fine as you're building out your initial audience that you can reach out to these people behind that email address and still strike a conversation with them. But it kind of does not seem so obvious

00:22:08 - 00:23:16
for somebody who's starting out today that they could actually do that and have the agency to do that too. So I wanted to also go a bit uh deeper into the mindset of a early newsletter creator as well Nicholas and I'm sure you have been in that place. You have seen others be in that place too. Uh and it probably shifts before and after you have access to insights behind your subscriber data. So now that you have access to options to enrich your data either through mega hit or some other

00:22:43 - 00:23:48
platform or through surveys like you mentioned uh how should an early news creator think about it? What's the mindset that they should talk about or think about when they are building it out for the initial 2,000 3,000 subscribers? Could you talk about that? Yeah, sure. Um, I think if I were to like or I mean I'm I'm starting a small newsletter right now. I want to understand who these subscribers are,  right?  And um I want to talk to them. I want to get feedback to them. So, I think when you're starting

00:23:16 - 00:24:29
out, like your first 500 subscribers, a lot of it might be on a one-on-one basis, like uh try to have real conversations with people and not just email because in an email, everyone just sends you two sentences because that's lazy to type. And you get so much more information and people share so much more when you are on a phone call with them for 5 minutes. And there's also so many signals that they send uh through like their tone in their voice that you cannot catch in an email. Context just writing things in an email,

00:23:52 - 00:25:01
I would think.  Yeah, you lose a lot of context and people are lazy,  right? Because it takes time to to write, but it's not a lot of effort to just keep rambling on the phone.  I feel seen here, but yeah, please go on. Yeah, I think it's it's the same for everyone. So, yeah.  Um, and then as you grow and uh you should try to collect data from your audience directly, have some surveys and understand them as much as possible and then use that data to understand who's reading, what kind of content you should

00:24:26 - 00:25:39
write. And then in B2B, I would think that at like 5,000 subscribers, maybe 10,000 subscribers, you like seriously start selling ads. Um, and if you It depends a bit on your niche. Sometimes like uh Jacob Donnelly from a media operator has fewer than 10,000 subscribers and is on track to make a million dollars this year in revenue, which is like a lot. So, in B2B, you don't always need a big list,  but like often times around 5,000 10,000 subscribers is when people start like seriously monetizing in B2B. In B2C,

00:25:03 - 00:26:07
it's usually a bit later.  And at that point, you want to have data that you can give to your advertisers. Um, maybe also data that you can use for segmentation. So, you send ads only to a certain part of your audience. Well, maybe that's a bit later once you're more established because at the beginning you're just trying to fill every ad slot that you have. Um, and yeah, try to figure out um who from your list could be a good advertiser. Reach out to them. That can bring you a lot of

00:25:34 - 00:26:45
good clients and like repeat clients. Awesome. And I actually wanted to see if uh you could talk about specific examples of how people use let's say mega hit data and being able to see a totally new line of revenue open up. Uh would you mind talking about one such example if if that helps?  Sure. A couple um I can talk about CJ for example. Sure. he started using it and he looked at his subscriber statistics and at like the overview of who subscribed and he pretty much overnight doubled his ad

00:26:11 - 00:27:33
rates because he was like this is a great group. Um people will want to reach this and then people reach out to him and they ask him how many subscribers do you have who f our who match our ICP and he looks it up and sends it back to them and they are very happy. It's rare to get good data on that from a lot of media companies and especially smaller smaller newsletters. So that helps him a lot. And then there are a lot of uh newsletter operators who just reached out to subscribers from their list. Um,

00:26:52 - 00:28:02
one example that I can share because he allowed me to share it is uh Sam Halflock from SOU Effects. Um, it's a B2B newsletter and he looked at all the CEOs on his list and reached out to them and he booked meetings with he told me 70% of the CEOs that he reached out to and then sold them sold them ads um and has been very successful with it. So there have been there have been a bunch of newsletters that I know who've made $100,000 and more just from reaching out to their subscribers.  That's amazing.

00:27:26 - 00:28:32
And um at at that point in time, do you also think um they have been able to you know continue that business opportunity and be able to have them you know for subsequent revenue streams too. So let's say you start with sponsorships and ads and I'm guessing that eventually develops a case for building a info product business or any such higher ticket items that you might want to sell down the road too. Does that ever happen? I'm guessing that does happen but not as often or not a lot.  No, I

00:27:59 - 00:29:13
think it does happen a lot. Um I'm not sure if info products are like the best business and for a lot of B2B new media companies. True.  They can be and a lot of people pull it off and but when I talk to larger media companies, one thing that they often do is go into events. And events can be like big conferences or it can be small dinners hosted for example before a larger conference takes place. And then what uh CJ for example does is he goes into mega hits. There's a filter where you can search

00:28:37 - 00:29:49
for subscribers who live in a certain area. So, he looks for subscribers in the city where his dinner is going to take place and then he reaches out to them and invites him them to his dinner. Great.  And for the dinner, he gets sponsors too.  Wow.  And I I'm not I I can't reveal what he charges. Um, but these dinner sponsorships often go for something in the four figures uh for a sponsor to be able to attend and maybe speak for 10 10 minutes and it's not that much effort to put those dinners on

00:29:12 - 00:30:15
and then having like the data on who is in the area is like really really valuable.  Absolutely. And I've seen these dinners happen before events. I was at the uh news summit that uh Matt McGary had set up in February in Austin and I could say that that was a very good move to be able to do it before the event. It gives a much more intimate setting to do that. I'm guessing being able to land sponsors who would also be happy to, you know, get in front of these people in a much more casual

00:29:44 - 00:30:49
setting helps build better business opportunities, too. So, I'm I'm I'm totally in line with that. I'm glad that that can be made possible by data enrichment. So, thanks for that. Yeah. Um I I know we are probably at the top of the hour uh Nicholas, but there's one question that I want to ask you. You know, we are in the age golden age of AI. We are in 2025. I know you're building products around data enrichment. Uh, is there anything that you might want to let fellow newsletter creators be mindful of as

00:30:16 - 00:31:37
they start to use AI in in every part of their content as well as sales workflow for newsletters? Anything any wise words from your end  about AI in particular? About AI in particular, but about AI in the newsletter business as an intersection.  Okay. Um, I think AI can be helpful, but I would always want to keep a good eye on quality. Um, to make sure that as you're implementing AI, you're not uh losing the quality that people know you for. And there are certain parts of the business where I probably wouldn't even

00:30:57 - 00:32:00
use AI where I think in its current state u maybe in like a couple months or a couple years for example uh one question that always comes up with me is when you reach out to your subscribers for ad sales and trying to win them over as advertisers should you automate that or should you do it manually and in that case for example my own advice is do it manually because these are highv value people right?  They love your content. Like you will never find a better lead than someone who who knows you, who

00:31:29 - 00:32:41
loves what you do. And so you should like try your best to convert them into like actual customers. And that means yes, you should personalize it and you shouldn't just send them like a mass email. So I I've seen people who have used AI too much and maybe that's like a that's like a interesting problem to have in the newsletter space because there are so many people who are enthusiastic about tech and in different industries you would have to encourage them to use it a bit more.  Um and I think there are many good

00:32:04 - 00:33:08
use cases for it. No, that's that's actually a very interesting insight uh Nicholas because a lot of people do treat newsitters also at a very personal end that they think that they're writing to their own small clique of people who are passionate about that particular niche. But as you grow your audience, the fact that you're still able to get data on specific segments of your audience and you put in that little bit of extra care and attention to address them as you would address an old friend,

00:32:37 - 00:33:34
for example, I think that would go a long way in building relationship. And I'm guessing, you know, there are various paid ways to augment your audience and to be able to expand your audience too. But organic word of mouth still trumps every particular mechanism. So especially in the ad sales too if they have had a great experience with you sponsoring your newsletter they I'm sure word travels around and they would also be able to you know let people know that this has been a successful endeavor

00:33:05 - 00:34:09
for them. Uh Seb Lner actually talked about specific avenues in our first episode on the letter stack podcast. So this actually makes sense because it brings that point back full circle. So thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. Yeah. And uh this brings us to the end of the episode. Uh Nicholas, thank you so much for sparing time and educating our listeners on what's possible with data enrichment. I know that all of you are starting out your newsletter careers today or probably have just started but

00:33:37 - 00:34:44
are looking to go along. But as you grow and scale, use Nicholas's advice and put it to good use. And hopefully once you get bigger, you'll probably use this product Mega Hit to be able to put it to good use and have that enriched on autopilot, right? Yeah. And by the way, we should also let the audience know about your new newsletter. Would you mind mentioning what its name is and how can people find it?  Yeah, it's called Audience Doctor. Uh just audiencedocctor.com. And in the newsletter, I write a lot about

00:34:11 - 00:35:16
how you can use data to grow your revenue as a B2B newsletter, as a B2B media company. And I'll put a lot of tips in there that you can use uh to to get data to use that data to in the end make more money. And as a as any kind of business, it's your duty to make money because if you don't make money, you cannot serve you cannot continue to serve your customers. So you should focus on on getting that money in. Absolutely. There you go. So once you've listened to this episode, if you're

00:34:43 - 00:35:36
still looking for ways to understand how that data can help you monetize your business, subscribe to audience.com and hopefully you get to learn more from Nicholas going around. Yeah. But thank you so much for your time and uh wonderful to have you here. Look forward to have you back.  Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been fun and yeah, I'd love to come on another time. Thank you. Thank you so much. Have a good day. Yeah,  you too. Thanks.

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