‍

Listen to Podcast

‍

Podcast Transcript

Renga (00:00)
Welcome to LetterStack. We are on episode two and I have Nathan May with me who's going to teach us about how to scale your newsletter through paid media. Nathan and I met in Austin in February and I told him, man, you have got to come to the show and make sure that our viewers and subscribers understand how and when to get started with paid media for that newsletter. Now, Nathan runs the feed media.

which has worked with some of the biggest newsletters, know, the rundown, the neuron, bootstrap gens, you name it. So he actually has experience scaling from zero to hundreds and thousands of newsletter subscribers. So he's going to actually give us a breakdown on when do you get started with paid media on newsletters and what's the right way to go about it. So first things, welcome to the show, Nathan.

Nathan May (01:01)
Hey, thanks for having me. I'm excited to do this.

Renga (01:05)
Absolutely. And before we get started on newsletters, Nathan, I understand we both have some shared battle scars working in consulting. So would you mind just sharing your experience briefly on before you started on newsletters and the feed media, what was your work experience like? And could you talk about how you stumbled into newsletters and founded the feed media?

Nathan May (01:28)
Yeah.

I guess I did probably three things before TFM. So one, when I was super young, I was like, I don't know, 14 or 15, I built this company called Block by Block and we built custom Minecraft maps for famous YouTubers. That was the first thing I ever did when I was a kid. Then after college, I went into consulting for BCG and I did like a lot of work for private equity companies. So kind of like M &A, like diligent stuff, did a lot of marketing work and some of that overlapped with with media. So I did some stuff with like Roger Lynn Shunak.

Renga (01:41)
Wow.

Nathan May (01:59)
runs Conde Nast, or like we did like a big five-year strategy thing for Meredith, kind of the big, you know, media companies. And then I think a little bit after that I helped build this company called Apex that was acquiring mobile apps and got to meet all these cool indie entrepreneurs and that's a little bit of how I actually discovered newsletters was through them.

Renga (02:19)
Awesome, awesome. So this was way back when, would you mind telling us about when did you get started with Newstitters and the feed media? How did it come about?

Nathan May (02:27)
Yeah,

so it's interesting. So I knew little bit about media and newsletters because when I was working at BCG, ⁓ wanted more first-party data. And at that time, there was this sort of niche, nerdy thing happening in the web in general, was like Google was getting rid of this thing called third-party cookies, and that was gonna impact everybody. Everybody cared about first-party data because of that. Now it's more because of SEOs and other stuff.

Renga (02:54)
Jury's out on that one, by the way.

So yeah. Yeah.

Nathan May (02:56)
I know, wait, yeah, that's good. So Google totally

re-nagged on that one because everybody threw a fit. But at the time, yeah, people were really worried about it.

Renga (03:01)
Yeah.

Nathan May (03:05)
When I really I think learn more about newsletters operationally Yeah, so so when I joined Apex this was a cool company We were acquiring mobile apps from you know entrepreneurs or bootstrapped You know, maybe they didn't go to college or they they went to college and dropped out and they're doing you know One to ten million dollars a year, you know all to them super super cool 40 50 percent 60 percent you put a margin businesses and Two of those guys we bought a big 12 million

Renga (03:31)
Great.

Nathan May (03:35)
a year portfolio from they had that they had a newsletter that was doing million dollars a year they had a Supplement branch doing million dollars a year. They're just great marketers. And so I originally thought Yeah, this was when was this this was probably in like 2020 To 2022 2021 2022 a couple years ago

Renga (03:48)
And this was like almost a decade ago, is that right?

not so far back then.

Okay.

Nathan May (04:04)
And

I thought like mobile apps are like widgets. They're like, like this is cute. And then I got into that business like, wow, these are like, this is serious. I mean, these are awesome like entrepreneurs. And they made me see the same thing in newsletters because they had a couple of newsletters ⁓ and they knew about like Sean Purry and the Milk Road and they knew a little bit about Beehive because of that. And so they got me on this idea of starting a couple of newsletters.

I did that. had one that was a crypto newsletter called Nifty Nest that we ended up selling to Mochro, not for a lot of money, but it was like a small thing. I had another newsletter for creators. I really loved writing newsletters. I loved growing them. I hated selling sponsorships. so what I'm just kind of doing was like, oh, well, why don't I just do the part I like, like the growth part, for other newsletters? And that's sort of how the feed got started in, let's call it February of 2024.

like that. ⁓

Renga (05:04)
Wow,

amazing. And you've covered a huge breadth of newsletters in various niches in this space. So I believe you have been fortunate enough to work with all of these. I believe, at Lattisack, most of our audience are early newsletter creators. They're finding their audience. are in the first 1,000, 2,000.

subscribers, they're still finding that niche as well. So I would say audience content fit, if I may put it that way. So I understand Nathan, you have a ⁓ wonderful formula that you've described in various YouTube videos before, where you talk about the propensity to be able to succeed and the amount of time and effort it takes to be able to do that. ⁓

Would you mind talking a bit about that for our audience to help them understand when is the right time to actually get started with the growth prospects for a newsletter?

Nathan May (06:01)
Yeah, mean, ⁓ think that we can talk about like the off-performing thing. I think that's very good for like, you know, for ads or putting together like a sales pitch or something. But I would say like, if you wanna go back even before that and say, you should know, should I even start a newsletter? Maybe there's a couple of things I've learned. number one, I think that too many people start newsletters that are...

Renga (06:17)
Yeah.

Nathan May (06:28)
Super general like you need to ⁓ You really need to choose a niche and ideally a niche within a niche So as an example, like what is the feed? Well, like we're an agency and we work with Newsletter brands, but we've chosen really two specific ICPs or ideal customer profiles one or like big personal brands that's like Schwarzenegger or Tyler Dank or Jesse Pucci and we've chosen ⁓ more like newsletter native media companies like the neuron and the rundown and then we specifically

help them with mainly one thing which is growing with paid ads on Facebook. So that's a lot of like niche down decisions right in there. We don't do like growth operating for creators where we take 20 % of their revenue and help them scale their newsletter business and their info product business, right? That's another variation of that.

Renga (07:08)
Hey. Hey.

That sounds

familiar.

Nathan May (07:20)
Yeah, we don't

do like we don't do google ads. We don't do reddit ads. don't do tiktok. We don't do twitter right there. There all these choices and so it's a similar thing for like newsletters. ⁓ I think that I I don't know if your person has like an audience already or how they're thinking about it But like if maybe there's a couple ways you might start a newsletter there's probably three one is like you start a newsletter because you want The newsletter to be like a business, you know, and you're sort of like an opportunist, which is what I was like I started newsletters in specific niches because I thought maybe

maybe

they could make a good amount of money. Category two is like maybe you're creators, you're already in some kind of niche and you want to use a newsletter to accelerate that. I category three is you already have some type of business that's not meaty at all. Maybe you have an agency or you know whatever, maybe some type of B2B, some consumer business. know, hey can a newsletter help accelerate that or do something there? So I think it really depends based on which of those buckets you're in, but I'm talking about the opportunist. Like if you're starting a newsletter from scratch, yeah you don't want to do AI. You want to do like AI

for marketers specifically in e-commerce and how they can make ads. How could you make better ads with AI? That's a fantastic niche. I would start with that kind of ideation. Yeah.

Renga (08:26)
Correct.

Right, and that itself,

you know, considering you tell me that this is a sub-niche, but that itself is a very big niche with a lot of players in there. So that's sufficiently broad enough for people to get comfortable too. If they're thinking, oh, this might be too niche or too small, right?

Nathan May (08:48)
Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, there's tons of examples of like, two of my friends, Ollie and Alex, they run an agency that is two years old, does multi seven figures per year. And a lot of their niche, a lot of what they talk about is just AI for ads and D to C. Like that's great. I have, ⁓ what's another great example? There's a newsletter called, ⁓

the Ankler, which is just like ⁓ news specifically for like Hollywood executives. That's like talent agency owners, production companies, right? All the back end, you know, people who kind of make Hollywood work because it's B2B, they're doing call it somewhere between five and $10 million a year, basically on, I believe a subscription and an events business. And they actually, they have a portfolio of newsletters. One of those is an AI newsletter. It's called AI Real and it's specifically

for

how you can use AI in the production process, in the scriptwriting process, in the post-production process, within film and television. That's what a niche within a niche would look like, and that's why you're able to do where I think most newsletters fail at is like everyone wants to start a newsletter and they think they're just going to make a quarter of million dollars a year selling ads with a $20 to $40 CPM, and that's possible. There are people who do that, but I think

it is much easier to start with like something that is a very high value niche or generally not B2C, generally some kind of B2B thing and think about you're gonna do ads and something else even if it's not at first but ads in something else ⁓ down the road.

Renga (10:30)
Sure, so let's actually break down the process. So let's say I'm a new static creator in the AI for marketers for e-commerce business, right? Let's think about that. And let's say I'm trying to do both organic and some bit of paid content. So what would be the space or the right time for an early new static creator who's still finding the 1,000, 2,000 subscribers but not scaled up to 5 or 10,000 subscribers yet?

Is that a good timeline to break into and start exploring paid ads? I believe you're an expert in the meta ad space, but are there any other ad networks that they should pay attention to or still meta as the best option to go forward with? And what is the mindset typically that they need to have to understand how to get into this in the first place? Would you mind talking about that, Nathan?

Nathan May (11:24)
Yeah,

so if you've picked a niche, you're like, your newsletter, and you're like, how do I grow it? I think the mistake that most people make...

is they want to grow for growth sake. go, oh, I got to get to 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 subscribers, and then I'll figure out if I can make ad monetization work. That is the wrong way to think about it. think there are two ways that you pay for things in general. You can pay for things with your money, with your dollars. You can pay for things with your time. And in general, I'm a firm believer that I think that your time is

the most valuable thing that you have. And so if you're starting a newsletter, particularly from scratch, you want to be able to understand without spending more than 10 or 15 thousand dollars, without spending more than let's call it three to maximum six months of your time, if that idea is going to work out and if it's not going to work out, you should kill it and you should pick another idea. The bad thing is sitting in an idea that's not never going to work, seeing it for a year or two years. And so what does that mean? Well, what does it mean?

What it means is that you should be trying to think about your monetization first, right? Are you gonna do ads and maybe subscription? Are you gonna do? Events are you gonna have B2B services that's behind your newsletter. Are you gonna sell an information product? You're gonna start a community, right pick something that is high LTV on the back of your newsletter So what I mean by that is most Newsletters that are making a lot of money have what I call the media mullet and and the media mullet is like ad-supported content

in the front end, right? Free, but you monetize it with ads. That's low LTV, but it's something. And then you have high ticket stuff, a myriad of high ticket things that sit behind. Sort of like a party in the back, right? On the back end. And ⁓ most people should be thinking in terms of that. And so the idea is whether you do it via paid or organic, you should be able to have a good understanding by the time you get to 5,000 subscribers what the average revenue per subscriber that you're making is. So if you're doing sponsorship,

You need to test some sponsorships as early as a thousand subscribers. It doesn't mean you have to close somebody. Just put somebody's logo in there and see how many clicks it gets and try to take that to somebody and see if you can say, cool, we did this much. Would you just want to do a test for 50 bucks, for 100 bucks? And choose your then high LTV thing. Let's say that's coaching. Let's say you're in, we'll pick DTC again and you've worked with a bunch of DTC companies and you have a DTC newsletter. You could probably find

Renga (13:42)
Thank you.

Okay.

Nathan May (14:03)
one to five people who would pay you $500 to $1000 a month on your list of 1,000 people. That's how you start to validate an idea before you've tried to pay to get to 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 subscribers. I'd highly recommend that approach.

Renga (14:12)
That's good money.

Right, and that seems like a good amount of money to understand if there's real revenue behind this, or do they decide and pivot into something else entirely. So I think that's a good test, Nathan. Thank you so much for that. Now, let's say you decide to pitch that, and you're able to achieve some reasonable.

validation with that approach that you just described. How would you proceed and how much money would you actually put down, let's say on meta ads for example.

Nathan May (14:51)
Yeah, so when...

So here's what validated would look like. So validated would look like if you're actively selling sponsorships and you're making, let's say something between even 10 to 20 cents per reader per month. Maybe you're not selling all your sponsorships, maybe just selling some of them. That's enough where it goes, okay, cool. Well, if you can go acquire a subscriber from Facebook for $1 to $2 at a low level of spend, let's say, you know, a hundred to $300 a day, that's gonna

be anywhere between three to ten thousand dollars a month on ads. If you can continue to sell into those same sponsors, you know your break-even period right away because you validate your monetization in the beginning. That's the important part. you make 20 cents per reader per month, how long does it take you to break even on a dollar per reader? Well, it's going to take you a dollar divided by 20 cents five months. Okay, that's a reasonable payback period in terms of like a media business.

like

you continue to grow at that rate. So then you can go and invest confidently. Now you may make even more than 10 or 20 cents per month per reader if you've got like the HallyL TV thing, you're getting a couple coaching clients, you know, per month. Like there's a newsletter called The Bottleneck and they do, ⁓ you know, tens of thousands of dollars a month just in coaching. It's focusing on COOs and people who want to become COOs. And so Rameel, his coaching is all for those kinds of people and they sell ads. And they write the newsletter a couple times a week. And so that monetization model

⁓ makes sense. It combines B2B niche with ads on the front end with higher ticket on the back end and then it works. And so like he could scale with paid advertising. But the important thing is like it just it's all easier if it can be math. And it can be math if you know how much you make per reader. That's like the number one thing you should figure out as fast as possible.

Renga (16:47)
Right, and the math that you explained hopefully gives enough context for anybody looking to decide, okay, how long can I burn money on this or be able to put money on this to be able to understand if they're to break even or not. So glad that you did that. By the way, ⁓ let's talk about the ad formats themselves. So let's say you're deciding to spend money on ads, you've figured out the math, and how long does it take for the payback period to materialize successfully for you?

I believe you have talked a lot about UGC content and social proof related content formats. Would you mind talking about at such an early stage what formats work well because they don't have high subscriber counts at this point because they are early, but they do have validation in terms of, okay, there's some semblance of signals from the audience itself that this is a great offering they would look to buy. So how do they actually put that into a winning ad format?

Nathan May (17:46)
Yeah, so there's sort of three components of like an ad. I mean, I think the simplest answer actually, if you're just getting started, copy. Copy other people's ads. Your goal as an operator should be to try to monetize as quickly as possible. You don't need to have to master and beat 10 on 10 execution out of ads right out of the gate. You just need to have something that works. And so if you were to go look at the big ad accounts like the Rundown or the Points Guide or 1440, you'll see all kinds of ads that are mock-ups.

tweets or Reddit ⁓ or Google searches like all these kind of like social hacking ads where they cover notes ads where they kind of look like user interfaces you've seen before so they can stop the scroll so you'll read the copy and then the copies about you know why you should join the newsletter ⁓ that format tends to work very well as statics ⁓ the other two formats that work quite well are what I call text over video ads which are sort of b-roll with static text over it

And then finally ⁓ UGC you've just somebody organically like authentically talking about why they like the newsletter So that's like that's the format. That's like what what vehicle does my ad go into? Beyond that there's There's the angle of your ad which is like who who are you trying to talk to so as an example? If I'm you know the rundown or superhuman or the neurons some of the big AI newsletters there's not like

One type of person who reads my newsletter there's like 20 30 40 different types who read for all different kinds of reasons And so you actually need to think about like what are the main things that what are the different cohorts of your readers? That are very different from each other. What do they care about? So I call this like the dream outcome Like what's the thing they really really want to get out of the newsletter? So that would be like, know getting a raise at work or sounding really smart or you know What whatever some some version of like what would make them feel good?

Renga (19:23)
Great.

Nathan May (19:45)
problems getting in the way of that dream outcome and then you write your ads around that. So as an example, if I'm superhuman, there are probably, let's say there's two different ICPs. Let's say one is entrepreneurs and one is like, if you're just regular individual contributor, you know, white collar workers. ⁓ Well, like, you're not going to talk to an entrepreneur the way you talk to a white collar, you know,

professional. like the entrepreneur there I remember there's a hook that we did that worked quite well that was like ⁓ you know how companies are going from like zero to ten million dollars with five employees using AI right and then it was leading back into how one of the AI newsletters basically was like teach you how to get a ton of leverage out of AI so you don't have to massively over hire for your business. That's really great language to somebody who's starting a startup. Somebody who's a white-collar worker they don't care about that at all but

Renga (20:40)
Thank you.

Nathan May (20:40)
That's

ultimately AI for productivity. So what's the version of that for the white collar worker? I think we had another hook that was like, ⁓ know, it's like the best employees act like CEOs. They delegate, you know, manual tasks like PowerPoint and Excel to AI so they can focus on strategic initiatives or whatever the thing was. And so like that's, again, a version of AI that's like, how do you be more productive, but more like tailored for somebody who's just like an individual contributor.

ideas there is like you want to be focused on the important stuff you don't want me doing anything that's like supermenial so they both lead down to the newsletter but the reason that we're able to get really strong CPLs and most people overlook this really strong engagement on the other side almost no one actually pays attention to that is because we're doing that work and we're doing ads that are hyper specific to one person with one type of dream outcome with one problem that's how you do the best ads

Renga (21:37)
Right, so this is actually a great example that you broke down for superhuman. I believe you have talked about this briefly, but you do most of your research on Reddit and other answer forum sites like Quora.

For example, and I believe you spent a lot of time being able to research these pain areas in these public forums to be able to understand how the copy can relate so much to all of these personas within that single new set of business, right? Would you mind diving a bit on how you actually research your copy and your ad formats in this particular example?

Nathan May (22:15)
Yeah, so ⁓ usually...

there's maybe three to five things that we'll typically look at when we're thinking about trying to come up with a bunch of different ads. So yeah, one is Reddit. That can mean going to individual Reddit threads. like there's a subreddit called Singularity that's very focused on AI. There's all different kinds of AI-focused subreddits. And just like hearing from, I'm a big fan of like the, let the customer be the copywriter. Like if you just take what your customer or in this case readers believe, like what their dream outcomes, what their pain points are and just play.

that back to them, that will work really well as effective copy. So we found winning hooks around being afraid that AI is, they're gonna get outperformed. Somebody's gonna get outperformed or outpromoted because someone else in their team is using AI really, really well. That kind of style of hook came from us looking at Reddit comments and we've used that in all kinds of AI ads that have done quite well. A lot of times we'll use a tool called GigaBrain for that. It's newer, it's of perplexing.

⁓ meets like Reddit and it does an awesome job of like doing all that manual teasing out of like what the trends are in multiple reddits for you. You can just ask them some questions. It's quite good. The other area, ⁓ organic social. So like looking at Instagram, TikTok feeds for ideas for hooks ⁓ is really effective. We look at competitor ads. ⁓ There's like one or two other places, but I would say most of them come from, yeah, competitors.

Renga (23:28)
It's amazing.

Nathan May (23:48)
internal, or I should say rather Reddit, organic social, and there's actually a fourth I should mention, which is ⁓ signals from inside the newsletter itself. So if you were running an e-commerce company, you would probably be mining your reviews just on your products fairly often to determine what your ad concept should be. The newsletter version of that is looking at like ⁓ what subject lines were your highest opened and what content was in those emails.

Renga (24:17)
That's

Nathan May (24:18)
Which links were clicked the most? Yeah, exactly. Like use that stuff. Throw that

Renga (24:18)
first party data right there. Yeah, yeah.

Nathan May (24:23)
all into Chat2PT. Have it tease out themes and then write your ads around those themes. Yeah, a couple different ways.

Renga (24:30)
Perfect, this is amazing. By the way, Nathan, you talk a lot about user generated content. What's your take, and it could be a hot take, on AI UTC content ads and AI UTC organic content? You see a lot of that in TikTok and in these days. I want to know if you've had a chance to explore that. What's your view on that?

Nathan May (24:53)
Yeah, we use AI tools pretty frequently, would say. Particularly, oh gosh, Arc ads. I'm a huge fan of Arc ads. I think in general, they're very, good. The tricky thing is sometimes you have to, like clients, it'll take a second for them to be okay with some of that stuff. But as long as you can, I mean if you are your own client, right, if you're just an operator, would say absolutely test them. They're dramatically cheaper than going and paying $150 to $300.

For you GC actor to do your your ad you can make a arc ads ad for you know ten bucks right and so in the nice thing is that that can let you test into Formats and scripts that are winning and then if you want to great go pay the three hundred dollars to hire an actor to redo that same script But you know why why pay three hundred dollars just to find out whether or not the ad is going to work I'd rather do it for cheaper Validate and then scale up after that There's one caveat which is that most of these AI UTC tools?

It's sort of like hum. It's like when you see like the Big Mac and like the McDonald's commercial and it's beautiful and the buns are just chiseled and toasted and they look amazing and then you get the thing and like person.

Renga (26:04)
The sauce is flying and everything.

Nathan May (26:06)
Yeah, it's kind of like all over the place.

Renga (26:07)
Yeah.

Nathan May (26:09)
Like, it's sort of that with the AI tools. Like, maybe 20 to 30 % of the actors are really, really good, and the rest are very clear, the AI. And then even within that 20 to 30%, you would never want to have them on screen the entire time. You want to be cutting them speaking with either them with a green screen so they're minimized, because sometimes their mouth movement can be a little weird, or cutting them.

Renga (26:36)
and the

fingers I would say.

Nathan May (26:36)
with B-roll. The fingers can be weird to cutting them with B-roll

⁓ as well, so B-roll of your newsletter, you know whatever something related to your ICP, yours AI maybe you know be an AI tool or something, so that they're not they should not be 100 % sheriff's screen throughout the full ad.

Renga (26:55)
Yeah, and I think that goes for any ad that you would shoot with real actors too. So that goes without saying it's good editing and good storytelling on how you are able to keep the pace of the ad itself. But this actually covers a lot of the ground that we wanted to cover for.

Paid ads. Just one last question to be able to wrap up, Nathan. If you were to start today, do you think your start and your growth journey would be any different from how you started out way back when? Would you start with the AI UTC directly? Are there any different ad networks like Reddit ads or something that you would try? Any opinion on that? ⁓

Nathan May (27:36)
Yeah, I think.

I think everyone wants like a silver bullet secret. There's some channel that nobody knows about and if we can just uncover that channel, everything's gonna blow up and it's gonna be amazing. it's not really how it works. The nice thing is that a lot of the playbooks that are around exist in a way that is public and often is free. You can go look at 1440s ads or the rundowns ads right now and see what good news that are ads look

⁓ If I was starting like a newsletter from scratch today, ⁓ would start by playing, if I did not have a large organic audience, ⁓ which if you have a audience I would say stick to whatever niche you're already in, but if I was literally starting from scratch I would choose...

some niche that either helps people save money or make money or learn or do better in their job or in some kind of luxury hobby. So basically you want to work with people who have a lot of money. So like the daily upside focuses entirely on financial advisors. The anchor I mentioned before is the business side of the Hollywood, you know, sort of the Hollywood scene.

there's a, what other newsletters I should be thinking about? I think there's a newsletter that's called Freight Waves that's purely on the logistics industry. You wanna get deeper into niche B2B where the CPMs, and you can sell ads for a lot of money, or...

You could do more prosumer, like if you can do some kind of coaching or info product business on the back of it. So any kind of like AI copywriting or, you know, I'm not a huge fan of this, like crypto or like ⁓ trading, there's big trading newsletters like Market Beat and ⁓ Bullseye Trades. Like those companies make a ton of money from just teaching people how to trade. Those kinds of things, those are the niches that you should be choosing.

⁓

And then I would, yeah, would grow with paid ads, almost religiously measure the quality of readers and ARPU, average revenue per user on the other side, make sure people are actually buying. ⁓ I would validate the idea within three to six months and I couldn't validate it, I would kill it, and I would choose another newsletter in different niche.

Renga (30:06)
Awesome, awesome. I'm just taking a break here just to put some charge back on my laptop. Hold on a minute.

Nathan May (30:11)
Yeah, yeah, you know us.

Renga (30:26)
Oh, that was close. Thank you. Yeah, I almost would have wrecked the entire podcast then. But awesome. Back to the show. But this was a ton of information flagged within like 30, 40 minutes of what we went through, Nathan. Anything else at the closing notes that you would like the audience to know?

Nathan May (30:28)
You

Yeah.

yeah, I mean, I just would, I would say like,

I would just reiterate something as I said before. You want to niche down. You want to figure out monetization as fast as possible. Trying to spend more than a certain amount of money or certain amount of time. Everybody's very, very excited about newsletters right now, and they should be. But there's a lot of people who are trying things that aren't going to work. And that's fine. Not all ideas work. But the important thing is you want to set guardrails to those types of ideas. ⁓ And so I think if you're trying to get deeper in the space, I think we do a good job of putting out

lot of free content. do a lot of with BeHive and kind of free decks and newsletters and stuff to help, I hope, teach people about like basically open, you know, I'm a big fan of like try to make your free stuff as good as other people's paid stuff. So like we have, outsource, we open source our whole paid ads playbooks. You can go learn how we develop ads for like the Rundown or the Schwarzenegger's newsletter, or if you want to go see, you know, we did a $270,000 product launch for a 15,000 person newsletter and this newsletter called Bootstrap.

If we look at how we came up with the product and how did we write the sales emails and the sales pages and how did we research with the customer and validate that was even going to be good idea to launch. We have a whole playbook on that. If you're a founder and you've got a company, like a B &B services company, you're do I use a newsletter to grow that? That's how I built my agency and I just open source things I've done there. So we try to be good stewards of that stuff.

Renga (32:08)
Okay.

Yeah, and I love the fact that you don't gatekeep these secrets, you let people figure it out because even after that, the hard part is to be able to be persistent in executing and bringing out that much value for months and years if possible. So I'm so glad that you actually came on the show, Nathan, and shared all of this value. I would encourage all our listeners to be able to go back, check out the feed media and...

If you figure out all the things that Nathan has actually talked about, want you to check out the feed media and see if you can collaborate with Nathan because man, the kind of names that he has on his roster are impressive. So I would love for one of you folks to be able to do that with Nathan all over again. But thank you so much for your time, Nathan. It's been a pleasure having you here. And thank you so much for recording with us.